Don ihde2.docx
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Don ihde2.docx
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Donihde2
InterviewwithDonIhde
ThisistheinterviewwithDonIhde,November14,2000inrelationtoMatrixProject.Participants:
DonIhde,EvanSelinger,SrikanthMallavarapu,JariJoergensen,RobbEason,NikosPlevris,andJeremyW.Hubbell.
ES:
Don,youhaveabackgroundinContinentalphilosophy;butifonedoesaquicksurveyofworksbeingpublishedinContinentalphilosophytoday,onefindsverylittleoneitherthetopicsofscienceortechnology.Evenifonefindstreatmentsoftheseissues,theyareoftenverydystopian,presupposingscience,technology,andtheiradvancementsaresomehowencroachingonthelifeworld,damagingmoreproductiveformsoflivingandstylesofexistence.Whydothinkthatisthecaseandhowisitthatyou,comingoutofaContinentalbackground,seemtobetakingadifferentpath?
DI:
Ithinkthatyouarerightaboutitlargelyordominantlybeingthecase.TherearesomepeopleofcoursewhodophilosophyoftechnologyoutofContinentalbackgrounds.IsupposethetwomostprominentwouldbeAndyFeenbergandAlbertBorgmann.Andycomesoutofcriticaltheory.AlbertcomesoutofaHeideggerianbackground.Ithinkpartofithastodowithaverybadhabit.InmyestimationthisbadhabitofContinentalphilosophytendstofirstofallnarrowlyselectsomestandardsetofgodfathers,orpeoplewhoarewidelyknown,andverticallycitethem.Forexample,whenitcomestotechnology,HeideggerandMarcuseareprobablystillthepeoplewhoaremosttalkedaboutinthefield.Itusedtobeawiderset,butotherpeoplehavesortofdroppedoff.Bothofthesepeopletendtobehighlydystopian.Ontheotherhand,asyouknow,theDutchhavebeenreadingAmericanphilosophersoftechnology.TheyreadusasbeingatleastlessdystopianthantheEuropeanforbearers.MyowntakeisthatthemoreIstudyparticularskindsoftechnologies,themoredissatisfiedIamwithtraditionsthatwouldmakevastgeneralizationsabouttechnology,particularlyonadystopianbasis.Ithinktechnologiescandoverybadthings;buttheycanalsodoverygoodthings.
SM:
IntheinterviewwithKuhnthatweread,heclearlyexpressesdissatisfactionwiththefactthatphilosophydepartmentsdidnottreathimfairly.Thispointstotheproblemofdisciplinarilywithinsciencestudies.Wehavehistoryandphilosophyofsciencedepartments,sociologyofscience,andpeoplefromculturalstudiescontributingaswell.Wheredoyouseesciencestudiesgoingnowandwheredoyouplaceyourself?
YouclearlycomefromaContinentaltraditionandyetyourworkinterestspeoplelikeBrunoLatour,DonnaHaraway,andAndrewPickering.
DI:
ThatisreallyaninterestingquestionbecausenotonlywasKuhnbadlytreatedbythephilosophers,butLatourwasaswell.Manyofthepeopleincontemporarysciencestudieshavebeentreatedbadlybythephilosophers.SometimesI鈜ebeentreatedbadlybythephilosophers.Thereisalongtraditionofdismissal.Ofcoursepartofithastodowithwhatphilosopherswearetalkingabout.TheEnglishspeakingsituationisoneinwhichtherehavebeentwoverylargephasesinphilosophyofscience.Onebeingtheearlypositivistphaseintheearlypartofthecenturyinwhich,ironically,mostoftheparticipantscamefromEurope.Thesecondbeingitstransformationintoamoreanalytic,linguisticanalysisversionofsciencedominatedbyEnglishandAmericanphilosophers.BothofthosetraditionsendedupinakindofabattlethatPeterGalisoncharacterizesasthepositivist/anti-positivistcontroversy.Bothofthemtogetherhadargumentsaboutwhatreallywascentraltothephilosophyofscience.Whatwasnotcentralhadtodowiththingslikelaboratorylife,instrumentationandtechnologyinscience,andthesortofsociologyofscienceandscientificknowledgeproduction.Thatgap--whichIthinkstillexists,withafewexceptions,inthedominatephilosophyofscience--wastakenupbywhatIcallthepost-Mertoniansociologistsofscience:
thepeopleoutinthestrongprogram,theBathschool,actor-networktheory,andBrunoLatour.Ifmyowntravelsareindicative,oneoftheinterestingthingsisthatpreciselybecauseoftheempiricalstudiesandtheemphasisuponpracticethathascomeoutofsciencestudies,itismyestimatethatold-fashionedphilosophyofsciencehaslostground.EvensomebodylikeHacking,whoisakindofexceptiontostandardphilosophyofscience,reluctantlyadmitsthatalloftheactionnowseemstobeinsciencestudies.Thesearepeoplewhodocultural,sociological,andanthropologicalstudiesofscience.ItisherethatIhavetoadmitbeingmoderatelyhappybecauseoneofthegoodthingscomingoutofthephenomenological,hermeneutictraditionisanemphasisonpraxis.Itlooksathumanactions,particularlyembodimentandperception.Inmyowncase,itincorporatestheroleoftechnologies,suchasinstruments.ItturnsoutthatthereisalotmoreincommonbetweenthewayinwhichIthinkofthephilosophiesofscienceandtechnologywiththecurrentstrendsinsciencestudiesthenthereisinthedominateEnglishspeakingorAmericanphilosophyofsciencetraditions.
ES:
Youjustpointedtoapositivistappreciationforsciencestudies.Butwhatifweconsideracontraryquestionconcerningdisappointment?
Youarewidelyregardedasoneofthefirst,ifnotthefirst,Americanphilosopheroftechnology.ItseemstomethatdespitetheubiquityoftechnologyintheAmericanlandscape,philosophyoftechnology,asaspecializedsubdivisionofphilosophy,neverquiteachievedalargefollowing.Whydoyouthinkthatis?
DI:
Ithinkthatobservationiscorrect.Itisnotonethatlackssupport.Infact,inJoePitt鈙1995additionofNewDirectionsinPhilosophyofTechnology,afairnumberofthefoundersoftheAmericanSocietyforPhilosophyofTechnologyadmittedthesamething.Itseemedtohitalevel,aplateau,andhasn鈚grown.Ihavemadethesamepoint,comparingthemovementsinfeministphilosophyofsciencewithContinentalphilosophy,asitexistsintheSocietyforPhenomenologicalandExistentialPhilosophy.Bothofwhichhave,inthesameperiodoftime,multipliedtheirmembershipsbyvery,verylargenumbers.SPEPisnowthesecondlargestsingleinterestorspecialinterestphilosophicalsocietyinthecountry.Feministphilosophyhasawideadherence.YetthemembershiplistofSPTstayedrelativelyconstant.Why?
Thatoneishardertoaddress.Myowntheoryisthatitfailedtoattachitselftoprogressivemovements.WejusttalkedaboutalittleearlierthegeneraldystopiancharacterofContinentallyderivedphilosophyoftechnologyinAmerica.WhileSPTisn鈚necessarilytotallydystopian,ittendedtoarrangeitselfaccordingtowhatIwouldcallnon-progressivistmovements.Itsearlierassociations,forexample,werewithmovementslikealternativetechnologiesvis-à-vispost-colonialsituations.Ithinkthatwasabadmove.Similarly,ithasbeenconcernedwithanumberofenvironmentalissues.Inmanycasestheenvironmentalissueshavetendedtosidewith,inmyestimation,moreconservativetakesuponenvironmentalism.However,thespiritofthetimeshaschanged.Forexample,oneofthingsthatcharacterizedearly-Europeantechnologicaldystopianismwasthedominanceoftechnologiesthatcouldbecalledwartechnologiesandlargeindustrialtechnologies--whatweinAmericatermrustbelttechnologies.Nowifthatistheonlythingthattechnologyis,thenofcoursemayofthepointswemadeaboutthingslikeglobalpollutionandtheescalationofColdWarpolicieshithome.Butontheotherhand,theColdWaris--ifnotgone--atleasthighlydissipatedanddistributed.Secondly,thetechnologiesthatarecomingon-linenowarelargelyelectronicinformationtechnologies.Thosemovementsthatoriginatedwiththeprevioustechnologieshaveeithernotkeptwithoradaptedthemselvestothenewtypeoftechnology.Forexample,inmy14-year-oldchildMark鈙generation,therecanhardlybeabetterwordthantechnology.Technologymeanselectronicmusic,computers,e-mail,laptopsetc.Theythinkit鈙greatstuff.IfyousuddenlybringbacksomebodylikeMarcusewhoarguesthatwedon鈚haveanygenuinechoices,orHeideggerwhowantstosaywe鈘eallstandingreserve,itdoesn鈚ringabellanymore.IthinkthatispartlywhereSPThasnotbeenflexibleenoughorquickenoughtoseewhatishappeningintermsoftheworldoftechnologicalchange.
JJ:
Nowthatyouaretalkingabouttimetosomeextent,Latourclaimswehaveneverbeenmodern.Howwouldyousaythisclaimfitsintoyourphilosophy?
DI:
Thatisanice,buthardquestiontoanswer.Aboutsevenoreightyearsago,ayoungwomanatMcMasterUniveristyinCanadadidathesisontheoeuvreofmyworksonthephilosophyoftechnology.PartofherthesiswasthatIwasthefirst"post-modernphilosopheroftechnology".WhileIlikehercharacterization,Ialsohavedeepmisgivingsaboutcertainaspectsofpost-modernism.ButifbymodernismyoumeantheattachmenttomodernistepistemologiessuchasthosethatcameoutofGalileo,Descartes,andthatparticularperiod,whichholdthatknowledgeisthetruerepresentationofanexternalworld,thenIamclearlynotmodernist.Ihavenosympathywiththat.Iamclearlypost-modernistinthesensethattechniquesmostlyfromphenomenology,butalsofromdeconstructionandvariantsonmulti-perspectivalismarewhereIwouldstandepistemologically.Epistemologically,IsupposeIamclosertoapost-modernposition.Ifbymodernismyoumeanthemovementtowardsasecularworld,aworldinwhichyoutrytoevolveprinciplesofrelationsbetweenreligionsandethnicgroupsthatallowthemtofunctionwithinaspiritoftolerationandmutualrespect--whatcouldbecalledEnlightenmentmodernis
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